Google Ranking Experiment Proves My Point (Exactly)

[...] Pro Freelance Projects created an interesting post today on Google Ranking Experiment Proves My Point (Exactly)Here’s a short outlineWhile mainstream experts from the SEO and internet marketing arena continue to plot together and decide which way to pull the herd (you and I [...]

Hello Jim,
I have to say that I agree with you. I have been actively working online for nearly 15 years now, and I have seen an astounding number of innovations.
However, it has been my experience that you cannot run an actual business online, and do your customers any kind of real justice while trying to keep up with all of the newest, hottest trends out there. There are just too many innovations and they come along too fast. Find what works for you and stick with it. If you have a few minutes to spare, you can go check out the hot new trends–and see if they have an applicable merit–just don’t waste a lot of time getting embroiled in them…because just like the weather, if you wait around long enough something else will surely come along.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Teresa

jim,

All the experiment proves is that you do not know how to monetize web 2.o yet.

James

Hey James,

Real quickly:

1) FYI – This was NOT my experiment (but rather a webmaster on Webmaster World)

2) I personally never said that I do not myself use web 2.0 to monetize my web properties (I’ve been doing it since early 2005)

3) Let’s say that the guys in the ranking experiment are lackluster internet marketers and they truly do not know how to monetize web 2.0 — it STILL goes to prove that search engine traffic is way more powerful and so is the fact that you can CONTROL anchor text (which is a lot of what is the big emphasis of the experiment). But everyone has a different take.

4) The search engine rankings created in the first site will still be there years later whereas there was barely any naturally occurring traffic created with the web 2.0 properties. NicheBOT has spent $0.00 in advertising since May 2004 and is a million dollar business. NicheBOT’s search engine traffic that was created initially in 2005 and 2006 still continues to sell on auto-pilot.

5) My primary point to NicheBOT subscribers (in their best interest) is not to jump off the foundational wagon of building backlinks (unless you’ve mastered it). It’s a mainstay. It’s a standard. There is no way you are going to tell me that Search Engine traffic (where 90% of most buying decisions take place in a given niche) is less valuable than Social Media traffic. I’m sorry, but I’ll argue that to the death as I totally believe someone is in a completely different mind when they log onto a search engine to SOLVE a problem than they would be inclined to go to Facebook or Twitter to look up their acne problem or what Jane on Twitter is using.

6) My secondary point is that even if some dude comes along and says that HE/SHE monetized something in the model train niche market on Twitter, that doesn’t mean the same methods or techniques are going to work in the high price fashion handbag industry.

The true underlying point is for people to use the analytical side of their noodle to make decisions when purchasing a web 2.0 stuff.

I’ve seen the entire landscape change drastically over the past few years because people abuse the system, and from my insider people, I here and anticipate that a web 2.0 shakedown is on the way from the big G.

I posted this on a Friday and by the following Monday when you commented Schrampko, I received 3 offers for twitter products, one which definitely promises to meltdown twitter from abuse (with other similar tools). I can already see the limitations and restrictions being levied on Direct Messages. Of course, none of the Twitter tools I saw had ANY PROOF in the actual body of the salescopy and I’m sure that since Oprah just jumped on the bandwagon that there are gullible folks that will buy that stuff right up hoping to strike it big only to find out that it takes real work.

And the real kicker is that once these web 2.0 properties go mainstream, they truly become the focus of spammers that truly meddle the whole property up, constantly creates changes, and anyone who tries to teach web 2.0 and try to keep up to date videos is a nut job. I’ve been in this game too long

But again, there are a bunch of internet marketing folks that wanna get in on the profit wagon to unload the products and create commerce because something is hot RIGHT NOW.

Once the fire is all stoked out and 6, 12 or 18 months goes by, the next BIG web 2.0 property comes out and bammo, time to learn something new. Meanwhile, the highest qualified traffic from organic search engine rankings are what continue to bring the stable bucks.

It’s just like Alice chasing the White Rabbit.

And that’s my take on it.

Jim

Teresa,

That pretty much reinforces my position as it’s what I did.

What I did was made sure to use methods that were going to be around for the long term foreseeable future, not go after the latest fad.

All the guys I know that make a million plus in affiliate marketing hold that the tride and true stuff that is long term are the links (and again, I want to repeat, that’s not that I’m saying web 2.0 doesn’t work — it’s just a matter of HOW LONG will it continue to work with the abuse in question).

Unfortunately, these marketers will have running in 20 different directions with their recommendations.

I’m sorry — I just will not recommend things that MAY be around 3-6 months. That’s a great way to spoil reputation with your mailing list. And I’m a big advocate on building mailing lists that have enduring relationships, much like subscribers that have been with me since early 2005.

Yours,

JIm

1)thanks for clarifying that is was not your experiment. It is too small an experiment to have statistically valid data. You would need to have a lot more data to be sure.

2) Like you I use BOTH methods (web 2.0 and traditional)

3) “Let’s say that the guys in the ranking experiment are lackluster internet marketers and they truly do not know how to monetize web 2.0″ —

(They are – because if they run webinars for example they could build a massive list and monetize it better)

“it STILL goes to prove that search engine traffic is way more powerful and so is the fact that you can CONTROL anchor text (which is a lot of what is the big emphasis of the experiment). But everyone has a different take. ”

You can control anchor text with social media to some extent and one aspect of social media is that it is where people like Google are heading. They are keen to buy Twitter and will probably pay a massive price to buy the worlds BEST real time search engine. This is why it is here to stay. It is one of the biggest tipping points of the current time and should not be ignored.

4) “The search engine rankings created in the first site will still be there years later”

- this is debatable since the way search engines value sites may be changing soon to a more authority based measure with less focus on (manipulated) link text and more focus on a new metric of authority by another measurement method.

“whereas there was barely any naturally occurring traffic created with the web 2.0 properties. NicheBOT has spent $0.00 in advertising since May 2004 and is a million dollar business. NicheBOT’s search engine traffic that was created initially in 2005 and 2006 still continues to sell on auto-pilot.”

Just remember that traffic is NOT the end all – Conversions are a very important part of the equation. I find it ironic we are discussing this on a social blog style interaction where people can have a 2 way discussion using all the market related keywords and user generated content (Common Morris – you HAVE to acknowledge that !!!)

Also – you do pay for advertising in some way. If not in PPC then at least in some time or energy to get links or create content. Also If you do add paid advertising you will make a lot more profit than you make right now. Most companies celebrate low advertising budgets are starving themselves of opportunities. In the IM niche you can seriously boost profits by paid advertising especially when you know the value of your client acquisition and you have an exceptional product like Yours Jim.

5) “My primary point to NicheBOT subscribers (in their best interest) is not to jump off the foundational wagon of building backlinks (unless you’ve mastered it)”

AGREED!!! they should be doing this always!!!

“It’s a mainstay. It’s a standard. There is no way you are going to tell me that Search Engine traffic (where 90% of most buying decisions take place in a given niche) is less valuable than Social Media traffic.”

I wouldn’t dare Jim – I LOVE SEO results and use them in my business.

“I’m sorry, but I’ll argue that to the death as I totally believe someone is in a completely different mind when they log onto a search engine to SOLVE a problem than they would be inclined to go to Facebook or Twitter to look up their acne problem or what Jane on Twitter is using”

Totally Agree!!

6) “My secondary point is that even if some dude comes along and says that HE/SHE monetized something in the model train niche market on Twitter, that doesn’t mean the same methods or techniques are going to work in the high price fashion handbag industry.”"

This is a matter of awareness and ability – I mean Zappos use social media to sell Shoes online

“The true underlying point is for people to use the analytical side of their noodle to make decisions when purchasing a web 2.0 stuff.”

I encourage people to THINK about everything they do in marketing – it should always be deliberate!

“I’ve seen the entire landscape change drastically over the past few years because people abuse the system, and from my insider people, I here and anticipate that a web 2.0 shakedown is on the way from the big G. ”

I bet you are right.They already filter videos more aggressively and will do the same for mass spammed bookmarking etc…..

“I posted this on a Friday and by the following Monday when you commented Schrampko, I received 3 offers for twitter products, one which definitely promises to meltdown twitter from abuse (with other similar tools). I can already see the limitations and restrictions being levied on Direct Messages. Of course, none of the Twitter tools I saw had ANY PROOF in the actual body of the salescopy and I’m sure that since Oprah just jumped on the bandwagon that there are gullible folks that will buy that stuff right up hoping to strike it big only to find out that it takes real work.”

This is the FAD aspect of it. There also a gazillion things like this snake oiling the webscape for ppc and SEO too ……

“And the real kicker is that once these web 2.0 properties go mainstream, they truly become the focus of spammers that truly meddle the whole property up, constantly creates changes, and anyone who tries to teach web 2.0 and try to keep up to date videos is a nut job. I’ve been in this game too long”

VERY true – the change of pace is very hard to teach. The mindset and strategies are the smart things to teach without getting to detailed into tactics and specific sites etc..

“But again, there are a bunch of internet marketing folks that wanna get in on the profit wagon to unload the products and create commerce because something is hot RIGHT NOW.”

people should buy for THEMSELVES not just because someone offers then a silver bullet or a shiny object,…

“Once the fire is all stoked out and 6, 12 or 18 months goes by, the next BIG web 2.0 property comes out and bammo, time to learn something new. Meanwhile, the highest qualified traffic from organic search engine rankings are what continue to bring the stable bucks.”

Great time to focus on real business building while all the hooplah is going on.

I am intensifying my link building, content creation and profit systems right now.

“It’s just like Alice chasing the White Rabbit. ”

Yes – I think your heart is in the right place Jim. The correct message is to stick to the knitting and don’t fall for the hype.

People should be adding as many quality based marketing channels to the profit funnel as they can on an ongoing basis.

I would add paid traffic to your model so you grab the rest of the business available!!!

It is great to catch up again.

Regards

James

Hey Jim and James,

I think I’m agreeing with both of you…

Backlinks are the foundation of search engine rankings. No questions.

Web 2.0 is about social interaction and building and maintaining relationships and groups.

Without the interactivity of Web 2.0, our sites and emails are static, one-way “buy my stuff” broadcasts. We can craft compelling sales copy etc., but it’s still a one-way message.

With Web 2.0 we have blogs (like this one), Twitter, Facebook and numerous other sites where we can interact with our customers (both existing and potential) and they can get to know us better.

With Web 2.0, people get to know the human behind the website and/or email – real connections are established and you build a reputation (for being whoever you actually ARE). It would be hard to hide your real personality in the Web 2.0 world!

Some – like @JamesSchramko for example – develop such a reputation for providing valuable content and insight that if they post a message saying “Is Twitter a waste of time? http://tinyurl.com/dhpdk3 Join the discussion!”, then a certain percentage of the people who follow their messages (like @steveovens) – will do just that.

It would be hard to economically get a message in front of 6,000+ people (James’ rough follower count) getting them to search for the phrase “Google Ranking Experiment Proves My Point (Exactly)”… without Web 2.0 capability.

I don’t think Web 2.0 in any way invalidates the need for backlinks and search engine rankings – it just adds the social dimension to what we already do.

I agree that you should not allow yourself to become so distracted by Web 2.0 stuff as to neglect building your core business – but these are not difficult tools to learn and I think the trick is to simply “be yourself” rather than attempt to project some kind of marketing “persona”. People like to buy from real people – at least I know I do.

I’m currently reading a fascinating book on this whole topic – “Here Comes Everyone” by Clay Shirky. Highly recommended reading!

Cheers,

Steve

James,

“Just remember that traffic is NOT the end all – Conversions are a very important part of the equation. I find it ironic we are discussing this on a social blog style interaction where people can have a 2 way discussion using all the market related keywords and user generated content (Common Morris – you HAVE to acknowledge that !!!)”

Now you’re talking — conversions.

Unfortunately, I’m feel a little restricted to discuss internet marketing stuff here, that’s why I’ll have a podcast starting soon over at letstalkprofits.com where we’ll talk web copy, conversions, etc.

As for this, marketers trying to capitalize on the latest social media fad — show me da proof — show me a formula that works across multiple niches and then we’ll chat. One thing I know…

I just know there are WAY too many people that want success so bad and this economy can be serious prey upon those who fall victim to more spending whatever bucks they have left when folks should stay grounded.

Buyer beware is my message and make sure to be investigative and don’t hesitate to ask the product producer a serious in-depth question if you have one before you buy. If you don’t ask, only YOU can be to blame.

Don’t fall for Launch Fever or the ol’ take away as in the site is closing down. If it’s good enough, the product will open up again or stay open and if it stays closed, well, it wasn’t meant to be then.

Peace,

Jim

Same page – I would love to do a podcast with you Jim.

The person who has made the best connection with me for ideas on monetizing Twitter is @perrybelcher – I can add some of his pointers here if you like. He ‘gets’ how this works.

Love your stuff!

Peace indeed

James

[...] Morris of Nichebot fame, has highlighted an interesting SEO Case studyfrom Webmaster’s [...]

James,

I know Belcher, the add to cart button dude, is heavy into testing so anything you feel would be valid, go ahead and post here for sure.

Thanks bunches,

Jim

I believe that the core message of this whole discussion is NOT whether traditional SEO or web 2.0 is better, but that if you stick with your strategy you achieve more success, faster. I certainly believe that to be true.

If you want to paint a picture to make people believe that you have to choose between SEO and web 2.0 in order to be successful, I have a much harder time agreeing.

First of all the 2 are not opposites. Web 2.0 can be used very effectively to get inbound links to a site and serve the same purpose as traditional SEO. Oftentimes, at a much faster pace.

Second of all, web 2.0 is a very wide concept that can mean many things. I can easily come up with dozens of strategies that all fall under the category “web 2.0″. Are they all equally effective? Probably not. There is no one strategy that is the most optimal for any condition.

If I were to do a test, I would probably look more into how to combine the two to be most effective, rather than trying to proof that one is wonderful and the other is no good. The kind of experiment shown here, in my opinion, only proofs one thing. That is that the experiment designer does not comprehend web 2.0.

wow…great stuff

I am with the majority on this one.
Every technic has it place at one point
or another.
It really does depend on the market – alot.
However, with being said, links are & wil always
be – very powerful – but ALL technics have their place.

Yes, pure logic says a solid foundation is essential to a any long term web presence.

Like the 3 Little Pigs story; which house would you pick, Straw or Brick? Choose a marketing strategy that builds value not a flash in the pan.

Bottom Line: anything of value including your website, requires focus and hard work.

I am just a dumb ole country boy, but I have a hard time believing that anyone with 5 or 6 thousand followers and following the same can find a message. I tried it and here is what I saw:
got up ate breakfast and fed the cat.
WOW, a revelation. Only have to read 2000 more before I find something useful?
Tweet this and tweet that. How many new products and experts can there be?
And who even cares how many people are following Oprah. Does anybody really think that she sits down and tweets everyday? I am sure that she has paid someone to do her tweeting. And can probably find a way to make some money from it.
Sorry, I just don’t have the time to learn how to be productive on Facebook or Twitter.
I am sure that some niches have a crowd that can be found in one of those sites, but I am almost sure that those same people type a keyword phrase into Google when they want an answer? And if I am the guy with the best content and the most links, I will be sitting at the top waiting for them.
And as Randy would say “Dog (Jim), I gotta give ya props for that”, what ever that means!
Bob

Hi Guys
I am a newby, and most of this went right over my head. I have just started and use a Squeeze Page (Landing Page with some Keyword inserted)to get innitial interest. I use PPC to advertise and draw people to my page. I am getting quite a few leads every day. I have converted some of the leads also.
Now bassically my question is, how do I put “links” in a squeeze page (firstly wont it look a bit stupid and irrelavant). Presumably the links send people of to what you would consider “relevant” information. Which at this point sounds to be a distraction. And lastly, what the heck is Achor text?

Great topic and discussion. As a freelance writer specializing in writing content articles for distribution, I can say with all surity: article marketing is alive and well. If anything, it is stronger than before given the economic climate.

Personally, I don’t have much time for the yakking and yammering of social media; albeit I do fiddle around the edges of it a bit like most other marketers. I don’t have any big statistical studies to quote or anything but I do have a gut feeling.

That feeling tells me I stand about as much chance of becoming a social media nova as getting struck by lightening three times in the same afternoon (once will be more than enough, thank you very much). So, I’ll stick with what I’m good at as a primary means of action.

It amuses me to no end to watch Tweeters get torn up as a can of kraut over the way some other people use the platform. Who cares? If you don’t like the program, change the channel; unfollow them.

Maybe it’s just me but I find great humor in the seriousness the self-appointed Twitter Gods invest in their own opinions – which basically mean nothing. They must have cut class that day in Marketing 101 when they said, “What ever you do, don’t ever start believing your own press.”

I view Twitter as another means to an end and that end is sales somewhere down the road. I am not interested in numbers of followers for popularity but rather in number of potential buyers following. The others are dead-weight bandwidth thieves for my part of it and need to bother someone else down the cyber highway.

Don’t get me wrong, I think social media has its place, just like traditional marketing. Relationships with customers is important, but relationships with everyone at the mall is not. Everything in moderation is a good rule online as well as off. If you become consummed in one form or the other you get lost in the fog before long. Activity is intoxicating and easily mistaken for acheivement.

If you were charged a penny at the door for my thoughts, Jim over-charged you about a nickel or so, but there they are.

Mike

Hi All,

I’m a newbie and based on what I have learned so far I would rather work on building backlinks. Web2 could be great if you know what you are doing but could be a huge distraction for newbies.
Thank you Jim and James for your interesting insights
Bozena

Hi Jim, thanks a lot for bringing the experiment to us. I am sure that will keep reading and following what you feed us. it is really interesting to know what is happening on the back stage. I am still in learning phase to start my online business and I got so many things in my mind but sill ver confused to find my proper niche Market.

That was thought provoking, the one you shown on the link from the Webmaster’s World forum. That the old link building technique still apply. Thanks for the info Jim!

Couldn’t agree more with Jim. It’s far too easy to get distracted by the bright shiny new things and before you know it a few months have passed and you’ve done nothing. My best site is still the one I did first where I was focused on that one subject, before I started looking deeper into the net – especially the IM side and taking the blinkers off was one of the worst things I did. it’s far too easy to get sucked in to other stuff.

I don’t know why people feel that building backlinks and web 2.0 need to be mutually exclusive. They are complimentary and should be used together. They are like Burgers and Fries.. you can have one or the other but they are better together..

Bob, you’ve got twitter wrong…if you are a marketer you aren’t worried about reading all the messages.. you just get yours out there and most of your target market follow you for your tweets. I checked through my followers and many follow less than 100 people so my tweets get delivered directly to them.

This is an important topic, Jim. It begs for transparency. After all, there the fog is so think out there you can cut it with a, um, mouse.

Generally, I am on board with you, Jim, about web 2.0 time down the rathole. I was ready to dismiss James’ first comment until I skimmed his reply. Whoever James is, he is obviously not a fly-by-night.

So, I will go back and read all of the posts with more respect in a few minutes.

My comment about Perry Belcher. I like the guy. He’s got a lovable huckster way about him. And I am sure he scored big on his last Twitter presentation with Ross Goldberg. The man can sell a pig in flu season. But that’s where I must stop since I think we do waste a lot of our time searching for a an impossible dream in social networking.

I was an evangelist. Now, after testing and testing again, I think Twitter is a fun place and you can make some nice business friendships there, but I am tired of being an entertainer and not getting paid for that.

Time to reevaluate reciprocal linking.

Jim,

How do you feel about blog commenting as a strategy for getting backlinks to your website? I notice that most people do not use keywords in their blog comments. What’s your position on this?

Patrick O’Brien
POB Marketing

Jim,
Thanks so much for the article! This is almost like trying to keep up with the latest computer or Crackberry…. today’s purchase is already old news….
Whay do we need a machine that does everything including wipe our butts for us? )o(
Stick with the basics…links, links, links….make money instead of chasing the next “thing”… this study proves it and validates what you and Steve have been saying all along.
Keep the great information coming Gentlemen!
By the way… I’d love to get that hour with you learning how to get better links!
warmest regards,
Andy

Interesting experiment, Jim. Thanks. I think this just shows that all the basic stuff continues to work. Balance and a little bit of everything still seems to be the way to go. There is no magic bullet in this business.

I appreciate your insights. As an offline publisher who recently “launched” online, it is difficult to find a method to “monetize” social media. But the linking strategy (while may be considered old school) makes sense to me. As a site filled with content, linking to other relevant sites seems to provide both targeted traffic and ever increasing PR rankings from Google. So I am continuing my efforts towards links, links and more links for my publishing website.

I enjoy reading your posts as you always deliver informative content. Please continue the great work as you have developed a loyal reader in me.

Regards,
Daniel

the marketing “gurus” are fundamentally selling whatever they are afraid will stop working next quarter. twitter itself doesn’t know how to monetise twitter except as a datamining source.
on the other hand, the size of the funnel mouth sooner or later effects sales. twitter et al have a role to play there.
the issue is roi. at the heart of roi is time.

Twitter will monetize itself by selling to a larger fish.

I found the actual study quite thought provoking. It is hard to separate method from results, skill from technique. As you say we are advised, or should I say manipulated, to think that one thing is better than another. We are time poor enough to want to suspend disbelief. We are frustrated enough to hope that one thing will be enough.

A link is a link, we need not one or two but thousands to get thousands back in return as traffic. All of it takes time or money. Each link has three functions, to rank with anchor text for a particular phrase, to increase authority for single words, and to click to go to your site.

Directory links – I don’t think these get clicked on much. A twitter link may get an immediate click but probably has a clickable lifespan of 1-30 days. Both links add a link to the thousands needed for authority.

Anchor text links will probably not be easy to get from either as directories like plain urls and twitter shortens them. Articles however are good for anchor text.

I think the advise to ignore no opportunity to gain any link is best. To do link building everyday as is advised on the audio. To accept that link building is drudge work but is the difference between traffic and an oasis in a desert (nice if you find it but so easy to miss)

Just as an aside, I had a conversation with my brother in law last week. He is a headmaster. I have been doing web stuff now for two years. This conversation is the first time in that period that Facebook and Twitter have come up in a conversation. Social sites are not going anywhere! He mentioned that the education board has adopted Twitter as a fast way to send out short messages to teachers.

Normal people have a different agenda. A marketer is primarily interested in monetizing with their media. Probably if there is one thing needed to cut time but increase traffic it is to think carefully about where YOUR clients are most likely to click.I really liked the tip about using a profile page to get anchor text links.Big traffic takes time, analysing targeted traffic takes thought. Thanks for all the ideas I got from here.

I have always considered you an expert when it comes to search engine rankings. The position you have achieved with the search engines for Nichebot.com is awesome and shows that you DO know exactly what you are talking about. Thanks, Jim. You are always the best,

Interesting experiment.

Hey Jim, I really enjoyed this post a lot, you made several points that I think most people should get used to hearing and implementing. For example, using the phone to meet contacts for potential link exchanges, etc. The phone is my most successful method of closing new contacts to get what I (and they) desire out of our relationship. It is one thing most people hate doing, but the one thing you need to be doing. Again, very good article Jim!

Some interesting points raised here.
I agree with what Mark had to say “Mark 04.29.09 at 2:01 am

I don’t know why people feel that building backlinks and web 2.0 need to be mutually exclusive. They are complimentary and should be used together. They are like Burgers and Fries.. you can have one or the other but they are better together.”

Search Engine Optimisation and Web 2.0 can be actively combined, building back link is a tried and tested method of getting good rankings and high traffic volumes and Web 2.0 can prove useful tools for building relationships with clients, learning from other people, teaching other people and promotion.

The SEO work may be the initial thing that gets you the most traffic and business, but by utilising what Web 2.0 it can help you develop what you initially had to offer.

My friends on Facebook for instance, some I went to School or University with, and want to find out what I’m up to, I tell them “Web Design, SEO, etc” they want to find out more… They join my Facebook group, so i send them monthly updates on my new services, etc. They pass my details on to a friend… Now I have word of mouth advertising from trusting friends.

Also if I am working on optimising a clients website, I might recommend them to set up things like Twitter profiles, Facebook profiles etc while I concentrate on something like building links for their site.

[...] need to “get links…get links…get links”. I think you get the point. And a google ranking experiment proves his point. It was conducted over the course of a year. I don’t think Jim likes social marketing, but [...]

This is great information, especially for someone who is fairly new to SEO and related topics! I picked up several great tidbits of info from this article – THANK YOU!